Showing posts with label Craigs List. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Craigs List. Show all posts

Friday, March 15, 2019

The Real Cost Of A Puppy

If you haven't had a puppy recently, gone through all of the ups and downs, sweaty nights of worry, long days of potty training, and messy clean ups when "they just came in from outside?" in the last few years, then I strongly recommend that you listen to my tale of Poe before you willingly and feverishly jump back into those puppy days again.


This is Poe,,, so impossibly cute, fluffy, small and adorable you can't contain yourself from scooping him up for a face dive smother. He is the epitome of everything that causes the heart to flutter. All puffy-fluffy rounded edges of irresistible and full of possibility. He is perfect just the way he was born... they all start out like this.

It's us, the humans, who keep having to relearn what we can't get right, over and over again....

Poe came from Craig's List. An ad online. Cheap and available at the touch of a cell phone text message. Ugh,,, the number of bad endings that start at Craig's List. I wish I could say that I have more happy endings than disastrous consequences from Craig but in truth I wish Craig took his List and shoved it, hard, and indefinitely. Craig has no business in the pet business.


Every person who has no business breeding hocks their unplanned pregnancies via Craig and that damned List. Get yourself a dog, or two, and POOF! you are in business! Lucrative, dog breeding, business. Everyone oogles over puppies. And,, your dog, your dog is of course the perfect specimen. No courses, credentials, signature clad paperwork, no accredited oversight, no business related taxes or license fees, ordinances, nothing. Put one dog with another, call it a "designer" breed (people pay BIG bucks for them,, sshh! don't call anything a mutt anymore,, no money in "mutt"). Go online buy some acronymed derivative of something with a K(ennel) and a C(lub) in any random order and now your puppies are "purebred with papers." (Probably the biggest sham around).

$80 bucks. That's what Poe cost. His new dad and old dad met at a nearby parking lot and exchanged cash (always cash) for a small being of mercies being. That's all it takes. No questions, no paperwork, no legitimate form of this being anything other than a casual exchange. Sounds like a great deal, doesn't it? $80 bucks for that face! I mean, who can say no to that?


ME! I will say NO! I will say it for about ten thousand more times over my vet career.  I will roll my eyes, swallow hard, sink into my shoes each and every time I hear this prelude. "I got him off Craig's List." Every time I meet a new pet for their first vet visit I ask. It is important for me to know. I need to heighten my degree of paranoia and understand how much more at risk to everything these guys usually are.  Why is that? Because, I know, I have learned first hand, how terribly awful these stories can end. You haven't heard about how disastrous Craig's goods can be? Have you? Well, sit back, hold on, and let me tell you how hard a happy ending from this beginning can be, and often is... Let me tell you about Poe.

The person who had no business with puppies dishes them out to anyone with the cash to exchange. Too often this is unknowing meets unprepared,, and too often I can't cast blame unequally on one side versus the other.


Puppies, kittens, I would venture to say every living being, listed needs a better chance than Craig can deliver. These are living, breathing, vulnerable beings. Let me highlight "vulnerable" again.

I could go on for days. Will it change? Or, ever stop? Not in our current climate. The want ads are the lazy mans answer to affordability meets accessibility. No contracts, no fenced in yard requirements, no questions asked. Me personally, I take Craig's List to be a puppy mill incognito.

Poe was purchased by a family with good intentions. A puppy is pure joy. Undeniably simply flat out ubiquitous joy. They all start out like this. Joyful. The dream of a lifelong companion to grow old with, but, as every vet and rescuer knows the first two weeks are fraught with worry that there is some lingering issue about to rear its ugly Sith yielding cypher.


Poe was as unplanned in birth as he was in purchase. Poe probably had a mom who wasn't vaccinated, and a dad who was most likely a transient fly by night passer-byer. No decision with any living thing should be based on these.

Within days of purchase Poe got sick. He wasn't playful, wasn't barking and was both vomiting and having diarrhea. All the classic signs of parvovirus which was the first thing he was tested for when he arrived at the vets office.


A parvo puppy is like a box of chocolate. (I stole that from one of my favorite movies,, but it holds). You never know what you are going to get. Medicine is also like this. There is no crystal ball to foretell the future. No play book to follow. And, our last best analogy is to try to give you "an average case" scenario, but, even this doesn't always readily apply. Parvo can be quick, cheap and transient, or, prolonged expensive and still deadly. Which puppy gets which? That is all guessing and hoping.

Veterinarians have to prepare clients for this. The complete Pandora's box a parvo puppy presents. Within a day or two of being placed in his new home Poe was a sick puppy with a treatment plan that started at a few hundred bucks and had the potential to end at thousands and still include death. Who, which of these  poorly pet-educated brand new parents can face this. They did just pay $80 bucks for him. Poe's first vet visit was crippling emotionally. His first visit also cost over $150 and he only had a diagnosis,,, there was no treatment included with this.

Stubborn determination is a valuable trait to possess when you are a doctor. I can tell you all straight up that I have saved more cases by my dogged determination than my decades of intellectual tutelage. My devotion to my patients, my sheer hatred for unhappy sad endings, and this infatuation with feeling like love conquers all is omnipresent. It is how I have decided I must live this veterinary life I am trying to live through and still like myself when I hang up my stethoscope. Happy endings happen if you let them.

I always (YES! always!) see parvo as treatable. I don't ever suggest giving up on treating them until they prove me otherwise. I firmly believe that this disease is our fault. That negligent, unknowing, or otherwise breeder, parent, transport person, well intentioned or not, exposed this puppy and medicine is available to treat. But, I also always have to be honest. I have to confess to people that I never know which puppy is going to go which way, and even with all of the money in the world, (for which I have yet to meet the person who can admit this), you might still lose your puppy. It just goes like that. It's a crap shoot. Surely treating earlier and aggressively increases your odds of winning, but even these guys can take tragic turns and succumb. It's a tough one to watch. A puppy dying slowly in front of you. The worst deaths are the deaths without empathy and advocacy. I say this because I have seen it. Its not fair, it's not right and it's not the path I take.

Every,, yes, every parvo puppy who meets my hands is offered treatment. I don't want to sound self-righteous, I am not. I want to sound determined. I am determined to give every treatable patient a chance. Screw the pessimists, the hardened, the pragmatic economists. That face! Do you remember that face? Try euthanizing it. Try to talk yourself in and out of all the excuses to make it justifiable. I'll give you a minute....

When Poe's story crossed my path it was a quick three sentence inquiry from a fellow veterinarian.

"We have a parvo puppy here. Can you take him? We don't have an isolation area."

Now this is a veterinarian I know well. She actually worked at my practice for many years. She knows how I feel about parvo. And puppies. She knows where my heart strings are anchored and how to make a serenade of them.

"We don't have an isolation area either." I reply. I know she already knows this.

"And the guy has no money."

Of course he doesn't. If he did she would have sent him to the ER, who is more than capable and versed in treating this.

I call her. The texts aren't going to shed enough light to make this case comprehensible or resolvable.

The story is always (always, always,,,) the same. New (brand spanking!) puppy just purchased, (no accountable breeder would have unvaccinated, unquarantined puppies to set out into the world... never mind the cash exchange in the parking lot and no accompanying paperwork), and almost immediately the puppy gets sick.. really, really sick. New pet parent has no idea what parvo is? No way to transfer to the ER (who requires a $1,000 deposit and forewarns the final cost might be a multiple of this), and now the client is calculating if it is easier and cheaper to just get a replacement? After all they have only had this puppy a few hours/days.

Do the math. This whole scenario started with simple math. $80 bucks off Craig's List versus almost (or up to) $1,000 through some breeder.

The conversation with the other vet goes a little like this..

"We want to transfer him to the ER. He is dehydrated. Can you use some of your Good Samaritan funds to help?"

This puppy will do best at the ER. They can provide 24/7 care. They are however, expensive. People don't go because they don't want to, or don't recognize their value, they don't go because they cannot afford to.

"Ummm, what the??,,, that money is money we raised. We internally feed into, for our clients.. the short answer is "no." I don't apologize for my audibly shock-filled curt reply. But, I cannot stop talking here. Remember that face? She has already, before the text messages even started, sent me that photo.

"I am happy to show you how to create your own internal clinic fund for your own clinic. Or show this owner how to set up a Go Fund Me page." I reply.

 ... crickets....

I speak again, "If the only options come down to euthanasia then call me. I will see if I can get one of the rescues to take him and I will provide the care pro bono." Like I said I always offer options. They may not be what the pet parent wants to hear, but I am not offering for them, I am offering to give this puppy a chance.

"Ok, I'll see what he (the owner) wants to do. I'll call you back." click.

I go back to work. There are other cases in front of me to worry about. Internally I feel that bubbling nausea of frustration meets vomit induced worry that another sick puppy will be biting the dust because another vet who wants to feel like they are offering empathy is merely shirking the guilt and another vet practice who is happy to let me do what they can for their own patient for free.. I have to admit it gets overwhelming feeling like I am the only one around willing to offer and provide empathy with meaningful service and care. Not just lip service and wash your hands.. (permit me a bit of bitterness in my verbal exasperation.. I have to harbor it and set it to sail as a sort of cleansing endeavor).

Poe arrived a few hours later. I documented his arrival the next day. He arrived quiet (always a bad sign), depressed, and dehydrated. He didn't interact with us, he just sat there cowering on his pee pad  in his bare wired easy to decontaminate cage.



So the story begins. Will he make it? Will it take weeks of no sleep? Wondering and worrying and trying to protect my heart as he tries to survive? This is also always the same. Invest yourself without killing yourself.

Miraculously Poe only got better. He never had one episode of vomiting or diarrhea with us. Within 2 days I was pretty sure he would be ok. We, the collective small group of us who had intervened on his behalf, all talked about how lucky he had been. How nice it was to have an easy case with our much sought after happy ending. At least the ending of parvo.



We also talked about what was the right thing to do next?

The real hard cost to us was a few hundred dollars. We all agreed to donate our time. It was a gift we were happy to give him. I suggested that we give Poe back to his family. We had heard that there were children who were crying and distraught with the surrender of their puppy. That was something we didn't want to be a part of. We wanted to remedy that, if we could.

I called the vet who knew the family and asked if it would be a good idea to at least offer Poe back to them? (in other words, I was asking her to vouch for them as I didn't know them at all).

"Yes, the kids would be so happy. He (the dad) seemed like an honest good guy,, he was crying too."

And so it was, a veritable happy ending would be had in totality! We were all conjuring up the reunion videos in our heads. The crying crowd as we delivered a healthy puppy back to 4 little kids. Move over Walt, we were about to have our own Disney moment.


Now I am a pragmatic seasoned vet. I have learned (always the hard way) that helping people isn't just about getting them across the land mines, it is about being to that glorious sunset with the rest of the sun filled days behind you safely. I owe Poe this too. We wanted to spell out in black and white what being a pet parent entailed; regular vet visits, vaccines, preventatives, neutering, training, time and money. Love, yes, love is imperative, but responsibility is what assists you in curtailing the remaining potential land mines ahead.

We all agreed to give Poe back without any incurred costs. I would use donations and we all donated our time. We all felt really good about being a part of the good in the world when there is already too much sadness.

I called Poe's dad to share the news. I confessed that we don't usually do this. We don't usually contact the original owners, but Poe had been such an easy success that we felt it was the right thing to do in his case. I discussed the plan to help identify future costs of care, and even told him that we could help him find low cost options. Poe would be given back to them healthy and happy and we would help them with whatever he needed to stay this way.

He told me his kids had been upset with Poe's departure. He also said he wanted to speak to his wife about it. I left him my cell phone number and he said he would call me back.

He never did. He also never said "thank you," or, "I'm glad/relieved/happy, etc, that Poe is ok."



And so the dream ended,,, the fairy tale was half fulfilled. Poe made it..



Poe is still with us. A week and a half later. We will do everything we can to be a part of his life. Indefinitely.


And maybe there is one less Craig's List customer out there? Maybe he feels like he dodged a bullet? Maybe he thought that $80 is all a pet needs for their whole life? Maybe he just didn't have the $500 bucks I estimated Poe would cost over the next 6 months, and he couldn't listen to the kids cry again? I really don't know?

Maybe being a dreamer is not as important as a doer? And just maybe I need to revel in my own happy endings, even when the world doesn't deliver them in packages as marvelous as a puppy.


I would like to Thank Jenn for always being ready to take another potential heart break on. For making as many sacrifices as she does and for hoping for "happily ever "after as often as I do. But mostly for making every case a purpose and for never asking or expecting anything in return. It  is always about the animals who need us, never about what it costs us.


If you have a question relating to your pets care you can ask me, the whole team of us at Pawbly, for free at Pawbly.com.

If you want to learn more about Poe please see my YouTube channel here. Or, follow our latest rescue endeavors at our Jarrettsville Vet Facebook page

Friday, September 13, 2013

Pet Flipping. In the News





In the news this week..a new way to beat a faltering economy..."pet flipping."

Remember the days when it was widely publicized that people were robbing trains, hit and run insurance fraud, and using arson to make a little spare change? Well, today in the animal world 'pet flipping' is the latest scam.

How is it done?

Your pet is simply stolen and then sold on Craigs List, or you get a phone call from some seemingly concerned citizen who "found" your pet and is now wiling to return it for a reward.

Sad, horrible, shameful, and despicable.

What can you do to keep your pet safe?

1. Never let them out of your sight.
2. Keep them leashed at all times.
3. Micro-chip your pet.
4. Keep a collar, tags, and identification on the.

What should you do if your pet goes missing?
1. Start searching every shelter.
2. Start monitoring Craigs List listings. 
3. Call your microchip manufacturer to report your pet missing.
4. Hang flyers everywhere
5. Notify all of the local veterinary clinics.
6. Report your pet as stolen on Craigs List

Why is a microchip so vital?
Well, simply it is the safest and most effective way to get your pet back to you. Not only that, but, if your pet is microchipped and if it goes missing the microchip can be used as the foundation for criminal charges. A microchipped pet that goes missing and is in another persons possession is considered stolen property.

If you are interested in microchipping your pet please see your veterinarian. If you are in the Jarrettsville MD area stop by Jarrettsville Vet, we microchip with every examination for FREE!




Tuesday, August 23, 2011

Sages long way home

I was called late one evening by one of my technicians. She told me that her neighbor had “dropped” their 4 month old pit bull puppy off of the porch, and she believed the puppy had a broken leg. I told her to meet me at the clinic with the puppy first thing the next morning. Now I know all of you are gasping in horror and thinking that I am a cold, inconsiderate, awful person because I was waiting until the morning. But I will remind you all that a broken leg is not a life-threatening problem. And to my defense I did give her instructions for pain medicines to get her comfortably through the night.
Many times in trauma cases we do not rush into surgery. We don’t rush into surgery because we need to make sure that the really critical parts of the body are o.k. We want to make sure your heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, bladder, intestines, etc. are all still intact. A bone, really almost any bone, is ancillary. Bones are just to protect other more important things, or help you get around.  
I met Sage puppy the next morning. She was the most adorable grey happy bundle of cuteness ever. I knew the minute that I saw her that I was going to try to make everything alright for her. I was dedicated to her from the first moment. It was impossible to not want to hug her, cuddle her, and love her. And that was all she wanted to do back. She was so happy and so sweet and soo adorable. (Man, I just can’t resist a pit bull puppy!  Especially a fat nosed doe-eyed wiggly butt pittie bull.)
Then I looked at her. She was limping on not one front leg, but both. Damn it! I knew what that meant. And then the girls confirmed it with an x-ray. She had broken the right elbow and the left wrist. God, she was a mess. My technician then divulged to me that the family who owned Sage was a very young couple with two children under 3, and the father was undergoing treatment for cancer. She didn’t have to tell me what she said next. They had no money. Really? Am I surprised? Why should I be? I wasn’t? But how was I going to fix two broken legs for free?
I called her family in to talk the next day. I wanted to meet them and decide how to procede. I had some hard questions and I wanted some honest answers.  A 3 year old little girl was being carried in by her mid-twenties year old mom, and barely thirty year old dad carrying a less than 1 year old baby. My first question was, “why would you get a puppy when you are facing cancer and two very small children?” I know it is a direct hard question, but I wanted to know. Why would you get a puppy when you can't afford anything, and you have two small children to raise? Their answer was, “I,” (this is dad speaking), “always wanted a pit bull puppy.” Ok, I understand, and yes, I completely empathisize with the severity of this disease, and the fear of leaving a wife and two small children, but a puppy is a big responsibility. Emotionally and financially. They had no funds to get her basic vaccines, so of course they can't afford a broken leg, (or two). I feel very strongly that a puppy, or any pet for that matter, is a responsibility, not a right. I told the family that we wanted to help Sage but that I would not do it for free. They had had Sage for months and not had any veterinary care for her. I felt that once we “fixed” her she would go right back to being uncared for medically. She still needed all of her vaccines, to be spayed, and then the monthly flea and tick preventatives.  
Sages family signed her over to us that day.
I called a staff meeting to decide what to do next. We collectively decided that we were going to fix Sage. I think that after that I sort of lost track of the plan. Because before I knew it the front desk had raised about $2000 for her care. I was so proud of the staff.  I decided that her wrist could probably just be splinted and as long as we paid very good attention to the bandage and kept it clean, and dry and changed it often so her rapidly growing bones wouldn’t be hindered by the stiff splint she would probably be ok on the left front leg. The splint did help provide her with some rigid support. The splint acted like a cane for her so she was very happy to place all of her weight on her front left leg. She quickly learned how to run around on three legs.

BUT, that right elbow was a big problem. It was beyond any of the vets abilities to fix. I called a few friends to see if I could coerce, beg, plead, for help. It took me three weeks to get an old classmate (and very good surgeon) to come and help fix her elbow. He had to come from his real job, as a specialist veterinary surgeon, to the clinic to help with he surgery. Between his regular job, and a significant delay due to traffic, he arrived at the clinic at 7 pm. We started Sages surgery right away. At midnight I looked across the table at my very good friend trying to help me fix a very bad, very old fracture, and I told him that I was ok with accepting that we might not be able to fix this leg. He stopped his struggling with the ulna and said, “I have never given up yet, and I am not starting tonite.” All I could do was smile and say, “ok.” Another 45 minutes later we had the bones lined up and 2 pins placed and we were closing up our incision. He left the clinic at 1 am. That was, and still is, officially the latest night I have had to stay at Jarrettsville Vet. (Yes, please say a little prayer that that record holds for the next 2 decades). I handed over all the money we raised to our surgeon. It was a small fraction of what he would have made on the same surgery in his clinic, and it was a ridiculously long night.
Sage woke up well.  We kept her heavily sedated on morphine and I carried her home to my husband already in bed. Sage recovered remarkable well. It took her a few weeks to learn how to bend her elbow again and regain the muscle in her forearm and biceps. But the whole time she smiled, jumped around, cuddled and kissed. She was so happy to have friends and dogs and cats to play with. She never skipped a beat, and she never slowed down a bit. Within 4 weeks she was almost unrecognizable as ever having had such a catastrophic disaster.
Sage had been with us for about 6 weeks. She was a part of our JVC family. She stayed at my house and with me for the first two weeks post operatively. She played with my puppies and she slept in my bed and was a welcome addition.
After her 6 weeks of recovery I felt an enormous amount of pressure from the staff and the incredibly generous clients who had contributed to her surgery. I called her family back and we sat down again to talk about Sages' future. I explained to them that I was very concerned that if anything happened to them that she would once again be at the mercy of the generosity of others. I also explained that raising a puppy required time and money. I wasn’t sure that they had either. But it was undeniable how much those kids loved her and how much she loved them, and I wanted the same happy ending that everyone else was rooting for. I asked them to sign a contract stating that they understood what the cost of her basic care would entail, and that if anything happened to them where she would need care that they would bring her back to us. Sage’s mom reassured me that they had multiple emergency plans in place. And that her parents would take her and the family if they needed an extra hand or place to live. I reluctantly gave in to the pressures of everyone around me and took a leap of faith and signed her back over to them.
Because they were neighbors with one of my technicians I also felt better about being able to keep a watchful eye over them.
I asked about her frequently and was told that she was doing fine.  Six months went by. My technician came to me again and said that Sage had been given away by the family. I was very upset by the news. I asked why?, and she told me that they couldn’t care for her any longer. I was furious. I had gone against my gut feeling, I had provided them with everything Sage needed for her first year, and I had made them sign a contract saying that they would give her back to us if they couldn’t care for her any longer. I asked if there had been a death in the family?, or if they had moved?, and my tech told me that "No, they were fine". She did add in that she hadn’t seen Sage in a while and that she thought that Sage was now on a farm getting more exercise and with people who loved her, because that what her neighbors had told her. My tech knew I was furious and she knew that I was going to try to track Sage down. She told me that she believed them and that she really thought Sage was ok, and better off in a different home.
Months went by. And then my phone rang at the clinic late one Thursday night. I remember my receptionist Michele (Nina’s mom) running back to the pharmacy where I was screaming, “Baltimore County Animal Control is on the phone!” and “They have Sage!” I picked up the phone immediately. The director of the shelter was on the phone. She told me the following; That sage had been brought in that day by a Baltimore City police officer. He had gotten her because a Baltimore City Animal Control officer had been dispatched to his house because his neighbor had called to complain about his pit bulls. You see in Baltimore County, and many other places, there is an extreme prejudice against pit bulls. He actually had two very nice pit bulls, but his neighbor wasn’t too fond of them. When the animal control officer pulled in the police officer saw a sweet grey female pit bull in the animal control van. He asked the officer where he was going with her. He told him that he had just picked her up because the owners had bought her off of Craigs List and then had decided that they didn’t want her anymore, so they called Animal Control. Apparently in Baltimore City Animal Control will come pick up an unwanted animal. But in Baltimore City ALL surrendered pit bulls are euthanized. When he told the cop of her impending fate the cop said, “well can I take her?” Now remember the animal control officer was there because the neighbor complained that he already had too many pit bulls, but for some reason he let the cop have her.  Now he had three pit bulls.

Three pit bulls was 1 too many for his house. He quickly realized. He started making some phone calls to try to figure out where he could bring her to try to find her a home without risking her being condemned based on her genetics. He found Baltimore County. They, unlike many others, do not euthanize based on breed. The staff at Baltimore County shelter told him he could bring her there and if she wasn’t adopted in five days, or if they couldn’t adopt her out, then he could come and get her. But at least she would have a chance at finding a home.  When he brought her to the shelter they scanned her for a microchip. We had micro chipped Sage as soon as she was surrendered to us, and it is my policy for this very reason that I do not ever allow a new owner to change the microchip information if the pet is adopted from us. (To date we have gotten three pets back that have been brought to shelters to be euthanized.)
I was soo happy to get that phone call. I told the manager that I would send someone immediately to go get her. She told me that the shelter was closed and that she would hold Sage overnight and let us come and get her in the morning. I gave her my name, my cell phone number, and I told her that we would pay the adoption fee to get her back. She told me not to worry and that she would be there first thing in the morning to meet us. I hung up the phone and relayed the entire phone conversation to the all of the staff who had been eves dropping the whole time. I called the technician who was neighbors with Sages' original owners and told her the whole story. We both had to convince each other that we wouldn’t do something vengeful. We were soo happy to know that Sage was safe, but we were all hurt, and infuriated that they had sold her.
At 8 am the next day two of my technicians went to the shelter and picked her up. She was not exactly the same dog we had remembered. She was skinny, and had a terrible coat, and was not the happy, outgoing, sweetheart she had been. She was now the result of neglect, probably abuse, and I can’t even imagine what else. I feared that she had been sold to go into fighting, and that maybe she was just lucky to have not been killed, because we hadn’t raised her to be a fighter. There were a million thoughts running through my head. But I stayed focused on the fact that at least she was back safe with us, and I had learned my lesson. I will always trust my gut feeling, and I will not let other people coerce me into ignoring my gut. I also spent a lot of time trying to keep myself calm. It was very very difficult for me to not call her original owners and say some really terrible things to them. I almost didn’t care whether he had cancer, and I almost didn’t care what he was thinking, or how he could have justified doing what he did. I will never forgive them for selling her and leaving her to face what would have most likely been a death sentence. Whether it be by lethal injection, dog fighting, or gunshot.
It became clear to all of us immediately that she could not be adopted out without a significant amount of re-training. She now bit people out of fear, and she couldn’t be trusted. It was three weeks of trying to rehabilitate her in the clinic before we all decided that she had to stay with us. Michele asked if she could “foster” her at home. She had just lost one of her Rottweiler’s and she had another Rottie dying from cancer. I was worried that the stress of losing two pets and taking on a behavior case might be too much for her. But I also knew that Sage needed to get out of the hospital and needed the one-on-one attention of her own owner. I told her “yes, on a trial basis.”
Sage went home with her, and she went back to being the puppy we remembered. She hasn’t had any issues, and she and all of us are so happy to have her back.
I don’t know how Sage, or us got so lucky, I am just very grateful that we all did.